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[Music]

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the history goes back all the way back

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to 1956 when I arrived here as a result

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of an army decision to send me down here

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to Redstone Arsenal to work on that

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redstone and Jupiter missiles at that

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time those two projects were reaching

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their maximum effort and the army

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desperately needed people out of college

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to to help them manage those programs at

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work those programs I had graduated from

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Johns Hopkins University I was in the

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ROTC and as a result I received my

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commission as a second lieutenant and

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right after I graduate from basic

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training they pulled me into Redstone to

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work on those two two missile programs I

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worked in those programs for two years

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and I was released from the Army in 1958

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and it so happened that right after I

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was available to work in the private

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industry the development operations part

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of the army that was out here at at

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Redstone received the authority to start

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work on the Saturn one program and the

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Saturn one manager talked me into

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staying here and working on this what

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looked to be a very exciting and a new

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program it was still within the army and

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because NASA was not established till

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1960

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well I worked on those two programs in

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the systems office actually in the

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project manager's office and was helping

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them define the overall development

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concept for the Saturn one and the basic

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definition of the program in terms of

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project requirements overall systems

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requirements doing that kind of staff

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work for the project manager the Saturn

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one program was

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at that time of course it was a compared

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to what we're doing today it was a very

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simple program because all Saturn one

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was the objective Saturn one were to

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take the existing hardware or existed

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the redstone tanks and the Jupiter tank

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and the Redstone engines and cluster

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them it was the objective of that

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program was to a clustering of engines

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so that this country would be able to

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develop higher thrust launch vehicles

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most of the work had already been

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accomplished the development work one of

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the tanks and the engines and so forth

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what they had to do was just do the

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overall systems work to put all those

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things together cluster them together

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structurally make some modifications to

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the control concept since we now had

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multiple engines and all those things

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were new concepts which of course made

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the program that much more interesting

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so I worked on the Saturn on Saturn one

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for a couple of years in the early

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stages and they were starting to

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manufacture the hardware here at

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Marshall and I performed some of the

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liaison between the management office

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engineering part of structures and

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mechanics laboratory and the amine after

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manufacturing people in 1960 I decided

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to go after a master's degree and I

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departed for one year on a sabbatical to

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Purdue University to receive my degree

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and as it turned out when I receive my

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degree and came back the organization

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had been changed from Army to NASA and

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of all the things the Saturn 5 concept

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was just being defined

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while I was at Purdue they were looking

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at their various

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Brown and his team we're looking at

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various concepts of higher thrust larger

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cap ability boosters they had to C 1 and

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C 2 C 4 C 5 and then C 5 even had

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several several versions to it but they

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about that time when I came back they

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settled on this on the c5 version that

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actually became Saturn 5 which had five

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large F on engines two on the first

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stage and then the second stage they

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call the s2 and the third stage to

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called s4 B when I came back that

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program was just starting and a project

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manager had been had been identified and

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he had a small staff of just three or

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four people and I ended up being

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probably the fifth or sixth person in

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that office and the project matters it

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used me to do basically systems type

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work again similar to what I had done on

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on the Saturn one defining the project

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concept the development concept of how

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many launches would be appropriate for

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this kind of a complex system doing some

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overall program requirements and working

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with at laboratories here who were

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defining now the details of the Saturn 5

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and the s1c stage I did that work

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actually in the what was the development

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part of Devon Brown's team well as the

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program grew they established the Saturn

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Systems office responsible for both the

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the Saturn one and Saturn 5 and this

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small group that I was part of the

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Saturn 5 group was part of the Saturn

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systems office the program grew to the

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point where it needed some

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reorganization and some additional

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staffing they reorganized and brought in

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dr. art rudolph who was one of the

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famous people within this von braun team

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made him program manager and of course

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he established a a organization that had

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individuals responsible for the various

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parts of the program like each of the

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stages then they also established the

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systems engineering office and they

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appointed me head of the systems

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engineering so we proceeded to now go

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into more detail and what it took to put

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this program together and and in

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requirements program requirements

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program development approach the big

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issue of course in this complex program

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was to do the coordination between the

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various people that participated in the

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program that various contractors the

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contractors had already been brought on

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board during the first couple of years

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and so we came up with a number of

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concepts to try to help expedite that

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kind of thing

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also there were new new ideas on how to

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manage large programs basically they

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established something called

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configuration management which really

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hadn't existed until that time it was a

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much more less informal approach before

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and configuration management made it a

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much more formal approach to making sure

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the Saturn 5 concept as I've mentioned

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was created here by the Von Braun team

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the s1c stage specifically was being

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designed in detail of course contractors

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were being brought on board because the

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size of the program like on s1c stage

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Boeing was contracted to help do the the

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detailed design of the s1c but the basic

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ideas of concept had already been put in

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place additional contractors were

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required to work to s2 stage of s4 B

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stage so that Marshall was also

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responsible for contracting for those

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activities the idea of coordinating

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between all these different people

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particularly as the program guru

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required a systems contractor to pull

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all these little pieces together make

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sure the communication was working the

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systems engineering office that I was

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involved in was responsible and and

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interfaced with Boeing on that too

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of course boring was helping us do all

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this kind of coordination we came up

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with a concept of working groups where

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they were the marshal people and the

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contractors met together regularly to to

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coordinate each of the system's ideas

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and and changes and so forth they were

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going on so the working groups were a

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very important part of the overall

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activity in Marshall people of course

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were very much involved with the

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contractors and and also in defining the

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the upper stages a good example of that

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might be the the s4b stage which had a

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single engine and the contractor did not

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want to go beyond a six degree freedom

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on the gambling of the all its engine

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because it made the made the system a

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little bit more complicated but the

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marshal people insisted that with that

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that'd be eight degrees and it turned

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out that on I guess it was Apollo six

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the second saturn v launch that

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difference made a difference between a

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successful mission and a failure so it

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was those kind of things that were going

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on all the time and you can imagine with

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with all of the participants in the

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program and so forth it was it was a

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quite a quite a fascinating thing to see

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all these kind of things fall in place

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the program had grown to such complexity

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that in 1965 NASA decided to change the

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whole organizational structure again on

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Saturn 5 bringing in some Mary's senior

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managers some of them army officer

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generals to take care of some of the

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management requirements that needed to

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be done for each one of the which one of

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the stages so as a result the Saturn 5

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project office was was changed and

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[Music]

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general O'Connor who was sent in here

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was actually named us they put in a

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state a level above the project called

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industrial operations because of this

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massive amount of industrial work that

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was going on in order to pull this

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program together so as a result of of

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that reorganization all kinds of other

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things happen and as a result I decided

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that ok I have accomplished because all

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these people coming in I decided I've

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bought it contributed as much as I can

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in this I mean I there was another

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program starting called the Saturn 1b

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Centaur and I happened to be personally

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familiar with a personal friend of the

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manager of that program so I decided to

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go on that project for for a year well

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as a systems engineer and but the

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project only lasted a year so from that

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Aaron was not really identified as such

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until these complex systems started

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coming together obviously we did

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engineering we did systems engineering

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what we did work we never really called

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it that we called it whatever else you

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know coordination this whatever but then

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systems engineering again put emphasis

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and focus on doing things that were

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important to bring large organizations

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complex concepts and so forth together

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yeah and that was that was pretty much

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invented in in those early days the

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thing is it's such a you know there are

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a lot of complex things going on today

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but this is this is hardware you know

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complex pieces of equipment like pumps

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and pressure bottles and all these other

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things that can fail on you the

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structures you know it's it was a it was

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the the the Apollo program and the

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Saturn five and the Apollo program of

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course saw an end coming after so many

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launches you know we had lining the the

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we had landed the astronauts on the moon

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or several times we knew that that that

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could not continue but there was

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hardware available from that Apollo

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program that could be used to accomplish

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some different kind of missions and of

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course the the von braun team had a an

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organization within the group called

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development operations and they

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conceived how this Hardware could be

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used to establish the first space

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station called Skylab so so the the

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Apollo applications utilized the command

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module and service module it utilized

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the s4b stage and utilize the facilities

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at at the Cape and so forth in a way it

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was a relatively unexpensive program but

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it did accomplish some new things like a

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court in including in it the the Apollo

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telescope mount which was a scientific

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mission that could be made part of that

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space station so Marshall was assigned a

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job they know putting all that together

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which we did with the contractors were

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already on board and ended up with a

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rather successful Skylab program and

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then that that went on the Skylab

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program was the first space station and

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by that time people in the aerospace

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community already thought well that

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Skylab was fine but we really need a

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bigger space station so that that

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brought up the concept of the shuttle

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because in order to build a bigger Space

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Station one need of the transportation

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system up there that was able to reflow

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rather than lose them the boosters all

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the time so this shuttle concept was was

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brought up and and and then the shuttle

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was developed

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and the program went on to do the

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shuttle and then the space station which

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were quite familiar with now well earn

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sterling our of course was a scientist

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and he was interested in what kind of

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objectives the various missions should

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take on the idea of Apollo applications

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was it was again that the the Saturn 5

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well the moon program what came to an

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end I mean the nation kind of after we

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landed the astronauts kind of lost

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interest because of the excitement of

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the moon program all of a sudden was

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accomplished and and then and then we

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had to decide what it's what else to do

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next the other thing that was happening

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at the same time was a micro

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miniaturization of electronics and a lot

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of other things that which made the

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payloads a lot lighter so large large

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launch vehicles were not required

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anymore at that point and unless you

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wanted to go back to the moon you want

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to go to Mars and you know you could do

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your missions with with smaller vehicles

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which were being developed by which had

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been developed by the military or were

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being developed by private industry the

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emphasis needed to go to something other

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than launch vehicles and so Skylab in a

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way a change also brought that change

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into the system and we continued with

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that with the shuttle because we knew

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the shuttle okay it was going to launch

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all the space station sub parts up in a

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space but but you could also put

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scientific instruments into the shuttle

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bay and do quite a bit of scientific

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investigation on the shuttle oh there

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was of course after the after the moon

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landing and and the end of the Saturn

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program there was great concern and

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Marshall about what we might really do

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and fortunately we also had a support

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from headquarters to do other types of

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missions and that brought about the

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well of course the the Hubble telescope

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program which Marcia which was assigned

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to Marshall and Hubble telescope program

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occupied Marshall for for a number of

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years and picked up where where Saturn

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had left off but after the after the

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Saturn program was over an Apollo

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program was over Marshall which had

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grown to about 72 hundred employees

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civil service employees was downsized to

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about 3,000 or 3500 people so it was

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quite a quite a shock to the

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of course those were turbulent

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but the Saturn 5 program had the highest

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priority within the country of any

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program in fact when we went to

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suppliers of parts and materials and so

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forth they were required to deliver to

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NASA before they delivered even to the

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military

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that's how high the priority was so that

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was one thing another thing is that

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people who were working on Saturn 5 were

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exempted from being pulled into any kind

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of military duty or being exempted from

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Poland being pulled away from from the

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Apollo program and this was with all of

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NASA not just Marshall if you remember

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Kennedy gave us this fantastic challenge

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of you go to the moon before the end of

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the decade you know it's no later in

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1969 and we had a had a humongous effort

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to pull together in order to pull that

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off and because Kennedy had made that

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basically a national goal the program

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had all the priorities as far as people

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were concerned as far as hardware were

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concerned and there were no challenge to

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that from the Congress if the program

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needed money it was sent down here

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the first Saturn launch of course was

388
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was an extremely exciting thing because

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that's the first time that that the

390
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agency and the Von Braun team had had

391
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risked putting all the systems together

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and launching them all live at the very

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first attempt so everybody was crossing

394
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their fingers that that would would be a

395
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successful mission and it was we had

396
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some problems on the second one

397
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there were several failures and and that

398
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really increased the pressure

399
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tremendously because we were supposed to

400
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put the crew on a third mission and here

401
00:21:23,870 --> 00:21:21,570
we had these problems serious problems

402
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:23,880
we had to solve those problems within

403
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:25,890
three to four months because the next

404
00:21:30,860 --> 00:21:27,600
mission was scheduled with a with a crew

405
00:21:33,860 --> 00:21:30,870
on board and we we were able to

406
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accomplish that with some some good

407
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:36,350
engineering work a lot of testing and

408
00:21:41,090 --> 00:21:38,910
made the necessary changes and had a

409
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:41,100
successful crew mission on the third

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launch so that was that was important

411
00:21:48,740 --> 00:21:46,830
also but but but the first launch really

412
00:21:51,230 --> 00:21:48,750
sticks you in mind and the other one of

413
00:21:52,850 --> 00:21:51,240
course is Apollo 11 because now we were

414
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not just worrying about the launch

415
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vehicle what we were working worrying

416
00:21:59,290 --> 00:21:56,130
about the whole mission you know with

417
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all this complexity in the in the

418
00:22:05,330 --> 00:22:02,520
capsule and lunar lander and so forth

419
00:22:07,820 --> 00:22:05,340
and to live through that mission and see

420
00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:07,830
that crew land on the moon of course was

421
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you know just it's just a

422
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the thing that sticks out in my mind

423
00:22:25,140 --> 00:22:22,840
about about Saturn five the Apollo

424
00:22:29,070 --> 00:22:25,150
program and the lunar landing is two

425
00:22:32,780 --> 00:22:29,080
things that come to mind first of all it

426
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:32,790
was such a unbelievable accomplishment

427
00:22:41,630 --> 00:22:36,450
and its complexity and it's in its

428
00:22:45,060 --> 00:22:41,640
application that it has never been

429
00:22:47,669 --> 00:22:45,070
duplicated that happened you know two

430
00:22:51,419 --> 00:22:47,679
generations ago and humanity has not

431
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:51,429
been able to to do anything like that

432
00:22:58,680 --> 00:22:54,130
again and hopefully one of these days it

433
00:23:05,820 --> 00:22:58,690
will but but it is a goal or a challenge

434
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:05,830
to humanity to do a more more

435
00:23:11,130 --> 00:23:08,650
challenging and more more interesting

436
00:23:13,169 --> 00:23:11,140
mission than that it's it's just it's

437
00:23:16,650 --> 00:23:13,179
just a unique thing that challenges

438
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:16,660
humanity by mind so I think that's part

439
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:20,410
of legacy the other part is that because

440
00:23:25,290 --> 00:23:22,090
it was accomplished and it was

441
00:23:31,470 --> 00:23:25,300
accomplished successfully it tells me at

442
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:31,480
least that given a clear goal given all

443
00:23:34,260 --> 00:23:33,760
of the support that needs including the

444
00:23:37,740 --> 00:23:34,270
money

445
00:23:40,410 --> 00:23:37,750
I think humanity can accomplish anything

446
00:23:42,090 --> 00:23:40,420
I mean any kind of mission it's just a

447
00:23:43,890 --> 00:23:42,100
question of getting the everybody